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All hail the King
So __with Coutinho being supposedly at the beginning of a long protracted tapping up by Barcelona, it raises a question about Brendan Rodgers AKA “King Brenny”(during their almost season). While Liverpool fans have been very quick to dismiss him and really disrespect him by giving him no credit i.e “it was all Suarez that season” etc. and Brendan wasn’t really the genius (even though you all said it at the time), what’s the stance on Coutinho and Rodgers now?
The original King Kenny was given the credit for buying Suarez and Rodgers has now been dismissed by fans as having no role in his progression, “he was just phenomenal” they said, nothing to do __with B-Rod. I’m sure, and rightly so Klopp will now get the credit for developing Coutinho into something better than he was but what about brendans eye for a player? He plucked him from obscurity at Inter, he’s promoted Raheem who’s gone on to bigger and better things and bought Lallana in too…. He also instilled a fearlessness in a group of those players and made Liverpool team compete again. Klopp has re-instilled and probably improved on this but don’t disregard what he did there. Even in Celtic he’s picked up Dembele who’ll probably develop somewhere else with more opportunity and possible global acclaim. Now I’m not for a minute stating that I think Brendan is anywhere near as good as Klopp, and probably/definitely never will be, his press conferences in particular were often silly and his own ego seemed to lose the run of itself a bit, however, after listening to Liverpool fans that whole season crowing about how good he was at the time, I was slightly annoyed that they gave him no credit whatsoever when his time was done and helped in anointing him as a comedy figure.
Fans are so fickle in this regard even take Gerrard and Rooney(they don’t pick the teams BTW) and Arsene Wenger as other examples of this type of disrespect, I’m just calling them Liverpool fans out at this point to give their take on Rodgers now that Klopp is the new King!!
Christymoro (AFC and positive for November)
Interest in England at an all-time low?
Saying no-one likes watching England qualifiers because we’ll tank in the finals is like saying that no Arsenal fans bother watching the CL group stages because they know they’re going out in the last 16 anyway. Or that, say, Chesterfield would struggle to sell a ticket if Man U roll up for 3rd round weekend because they know the chances are they’ll lose. It’s nonsense – football fans, by and large, are optimists rather than pragmatists.
Asked to think of a memorable qualifier, most will immediately land on Germany 1-5 England, followed shortly by the 4-1 and 5-1 v Croatia, the Neville/Robinson 0-2 and the Carson 2-3 against the same opposition. The 1-2 Pavlyuchenko. After those we’re probably going all the way back to Italy 0-0 England. All vividly memorable, and none purely because of the result or the performance – there have been other supreme wins, catharsis, defensive masterclasses and of course craven, insipid collapses – but because they were high pressure games against quality opposition, with a huge amount (usually outright qualification) riding on the result. It’s no coincidence that all of these games featured in qualification campaigns in which we were drawn with an equal or better team, so qualification was not assured.
Next John B claims that everyone seeks homogeneity, but nowhere is this found in greater concentration than an England qualification campaign. We get five opponents: two will be half decent teams, two not-quites, and one a proper minnow. The minnow is dispatched 5-0 and 0-3; even the goals are boring. The NQs set up with a back seven and a ‘combative’ approach which garners them a low scoring defeat after England labour to open them up (possibly with one exception where we sneak an early goal and go on to win 4-0). The HDs play similarly, except they have a modicum of attacking intent – this frightens and stifles England, and is usually sufficient for both to take a point off us; they will lose the other game 2-1. End result: eight wins, two draws, a goal difference of about +19 and easy qualification. This has no bearing on tournament performance, where we can go on to be anywhere from absolutely abysmal to merely terrible.
Friendlies are just as bad. We play ‘glamour friendlies’ in which we are outclassed but nick a 1-1 with a goal from a set piece, or lose to nil if the opposition actually look interested. Then we play a weaker team, we lack motivation and make a sub every four minutes so the game is completely disjointed and never gets going. There is no capacity for surprise any more. That is patently not the case for most other ‘top tier’ nations (if we are generously including England) – either they play scintillating, enjoyable football (Germany, Spain) or they occasionally throw in a completely left-field result in qualifiers (Portugal, France) and skirt dangerously close to failing to qualify, keeping supporters on their toes either way. Not so for England – just a slow, MOR trudge towards qualification and an inevitable collapse when it matters.
So the main reason that no-one likes international breaks is because we’re neither good enough nor crap enough to be fun. However, there are a couple of other, more niche reasons:
1 Tribalism
You may have noticed that people enjoy arguing, and proclaiming that this thing that I like is better than that thing that you like. with international breaks we’re largely all on the same side, so no one gets to indulge their superiority complex – and when they do, no one else cares enough to rise to it.
2 Hype
We are all susceptible to it, and the Premier League (as a corporation) is the master of it. Hyping Roy Hodgson’s England taking on Estonia at a half empty Wembley is akin to hyping a dash to the shop for a pint of milk when it’s raining.
3 Fantasy Premier League
Without FPL I wouldn’t bother with Bournemouth v Sunderland on a Monday night; now I’d be glued to it in the hope that Adam Smith can nick an assist or Pickford gets enough saves to win my head to head. It means that very few PL games miss that little extra frisson of excitement that keeps things interesting. England games could only dream of such a frisson.
So English interest in international football will continue to wane, until the FA turn England into a world class team or until people tire of arguing on the internet and we all join hands under a rainbow. Couldn’t call it tbf.
JG LFC (my mailbox vote is for Peter G, always enjoy his mails)
More on England
I think mailboxers have nailed the reason for England apathy over the last couple of days, spread across a number of different mails.
The familiarity of playing the same countries over and over again has to have an impact. Poland, again. Slovakia, hello. Oh Andorra, lovely to see you. As pointed out, other confederations have similar match ups but these are on a much more even basis. Brazil v Argentina is a real event (check out Coutinho’s goal if you haven’t seen it. If Liverpool win the league and Coutinho keeps this form up he will go to Barcelona as the first £100m player) while USA v Mexico brings all sorts of extra layers. However, the issue with England is they are perpetually in the top group of seeds so their repeat matches are against teams they invariably beat. The only excitement in qualifying in recent years has come when England dropped their seeding and drew Italy or Germany.
Worldwide qualifying can never happen for various reasons but would be glorious. There are 211 countries in FIFA, loads of who (whom? I had a terrible education) England have never, or rarely, played. Kenya? Yes please. Bolivia? Challenging. Palestine? Controversial. They say familiarity breeds contempt, and contempt is what a lot of people have for England right now.
The solution is pretty easy really. Take England back out on the road, let people across the country have a chance to see their national team. Play more overseas matches in unusual places. I am old enough to remember tours (Australia, New Zealand and Malaysia springs to mind) and while that is impractical in the modern game, one-off first class travel to Senegal or China cannot be impossible. Or India, that would be great. Or Cape Verde (five hour flight, no time difference and birth place of Nani). The FA could set out to play any country they haven’t played before in order of FIFA ranking as part of a 150th/ 175th anniversary celebration.
And what about the press getting behind England for once? Criticise performances if you like but let’s stop indulging in mud-raking of players as soon as they get on the fringes of the squad (oh, player x has been called up… quick go through his social media for the last five years and see what we can hammer him for). Is it any wonder that fans fall out of love with the team if the press constantly paints them as uncaring, over-paid, pre-maradonas?
Micki Attridge
Longer hours means less time for England
I wish to offer my own thoughts in response to John B’s very astute mail this morning.
I too find the malaise surrounding international games, and to a certain extent, FA cup games intriguing. I don’t doubt that years of underperformance by the England team and the comforting certainty of the Premier League play some role in the growing level of apathy towards international games. However, I suggest that it is a combination of the shrinking amount of free time people have these days and the ever-increasing array of sporting (footballing or otherwise) options open to us which mean we have to pick and choose what we want to invest our time in much more carefully.
It is no secret that many people work far longer hours in the modern-day world than they used to. Perhaps not everyone, but undoubtedly that pattern emerges. In addition, with costs of living increasing far higher than wages, or indeed benefits, some have to resort to second jobs or various DIY endeavours to earn/save enough money to get by. This takes time.
When all of this is said and done, the window of opportunity to sit and enjoy the escapism of sport is shrinking. I just don’t think that many people have the time, energy or inclination to devote themselves to everything they want to. What this means is that decisions have to be made in what to invest your money and attention to. If this means that you only learn and get excited about Premier League football then so be it, it is your choice. When the international breaks come around you can get on with the other important aspects of your life. Super-human Peter G being the natural exception here in his ability to follow every single football team and nation in the world.
As a final brief point, I think fantasy football plays a part too. Many friends I know follow football at least partially for the thrill of their chosen player scoring a goal or keeping a clean sheet and getting one over their mates. When this aspect of the game is taken away it makes both the FA cup and International games that little bit less exciting.
John Marchant
Time to apologise to Chris…
Please can we have all the people who said Smalling was out of order and lacked character, commitment and “pashun” mail back in and explain how not wanting to play football with a broken toe deserves criticism? I look forward to some interesting responses there.
Ted, Manchester
Nothing for Swans to get excited about
Great mail by John B this morning which has hit the nail on the head. The Premier League has become a joyless experience for almost every fan of a team that isn’t competing for Europe (and most of those who are). This takes me nicely onto my own team, Swansea City. You haven’t had many posts about our situation mainly because we are just exasperated with the whole thing.
The first couple of years in the Premier League were great. The atmosphere was electric, we played some great football and always turned up against the big teams. The longer we have been there, the more scared we have become to lose it. This has seen us move completely away from our philosophy™ which worked so well for us. The stability in ownership, astute managerial appointments and the signing of young and hungry players. We seem to be in panic mode and the shareholders that got us to where we are got spooked by last season and sold while the price was good. For the record I don’t necessarily think Bob Bradley is a bad manager, just too much of a risk for a club in our position.
The mentality of the fans has also completely changed in the last couple of years. We started to think of ourselves as a top half team and that has permeated fan behaviour. I remember Shelvey talking about us having the potential to be a Champions League team after the good start to last season which was frankly ridiculous. Most of the diehard fans can’t get tickets, we now have a lot of football tourists who are only there to watch the big teams and the atmosphere is non-existent. I only ever go to away games now as watching a home game is no better than watching on TV.
The point I’m trying to get to is I actually wouldn’t be that disappointed if we got relegated. I’d get to watch a lot more games, there are some great away trips in iconic stadiums and it would just be more fun. We’ve had a taste of Europe, won a trophy and beaten most of the big teams at least once. There just isn’t much to get excited about anymore. I only worry that with the new ownership things could implode if we do go down. I just want to get excited about watching games again without the negativity that goes with trying to stay in the premier league whilst ultimately not competing for anything.
Darren, Swansea
Atalanta: A quintessentially Italian club
Congratulations to our man in Kanazawa for his mailbox double this morning. I have a soft spot for Atalanta because when my brother was at university he had a year in Bergamo, and we adopted them as our Italian team. Perhaps appropriately for a couple of Crystal Palace supporters, for most of their history, Atalanta have been a bit rubbish, bouncing between the top two tiers of Italian football, rarely coming close to winning a major trophy (their only Coppa Italia victory came in 1963).
In fact, like Palace before this year, Atalanta’s last serious flirtation with silverware came more than 25 years ago: Atalanta made the semi-finals of the Cup Winners’ Cup in 1987-88, which is still the equal best performance in a European competition by a club playing outside its domestic top flight. Amusingly, they lost the first leg of the first round to Merthyr Tydfil. Their squad that year features two notable names: Cesare Prandelli, who cut his teeth as a coach there, and Grimsby fried chicken enthusiast Ivano Bonetti. Three years later, they made the quarter-finals of the UEFA Cup, with a squad led by Claudio Caniggia.
Perhaps what makes Atalanta such a quintessentially Italian club is that in addition to a near-constant pattern of relegations and promotions and a long list of short managerial tenures, they were involved in a match-fixing scandal. In 2011 they were one of a number of clubs who had players that had conspired to fix the result of lower league games. As the investigations rumbled on, they ended up involving former Atalanta and Siena manager Antonio Conte. One player, who accepted a two-year ban from footballing activities as a plea bargain, effectively ending his career, was Cristiano Doni.
Doni is widely hailed as one of the greatest players Atalanta has ever had, if not THE greatest. An attacking midfielder capable of scoring goals from open play and free kicks as well as setting up teammates; he was equal parts mercurial genius and fiery midfield battler. He was one of those players who just found a natural fit in Bergamo, his two spells there by far and away the most prolific of his career – 55 goals in 145 games from 1998-2003, and then 48 in 151 games from 2006-2011. While not a one-club man, he became synonymous with Atalanta, and his performances often reflected his team’s. His involvement in match-fixing caused something of an existential crisis for the club, and over time since then everyone from that era has been moved on. The club has had a lot of work to do to rebuild its image on and off the field in the wake of the scandal, and as Paolo Bandini pointed out in the Guardian, things are going rather well at the moment.
PS tying all this together nicely is that in 2004 my brother and I were on opposite sides of an American football match to Paolo Bandini. It was my brother’s youth (u-19) side, Paolo and I were assistant coaches, so we got chatting. He was very friendly, and I’d guess still is.
Ed Quoththeraven (mailbox double > sportsman’s double)
Support for our man in Japan
Couldn’t agree more with James T, Kanazawa, Japan; just below the usual suspects in Serie A there some interesting stuff happening, which I left out of my previous mail mostly due to trying to keep it somewhat brief. I have to admit I have a bit of a soft spot for Torino, and not because Joe Hart plays for them. I think it’s a mixture of their kit (I imagine it’s one that divides opinion, but I really like it) and their front 3 of Iago Falque, Adem Ljalic, and Andrea Belotti. They attack with pace and seem to be quite direct (not long ball, just purposeful) which makes them great to watch. I think Belotti could become a big player for Italy in the next few years – he has one goal from his first 3 games for the national team and is only 22.
I short-changed RB Liepzig somewhat as well. They were covered off pretty well by another mailboxer, and I think they are great to watch. They are pretty solid at the back, but watching them attack is good fun. Not many teams pull it off, maybe down to defensive instincts kicking in, or perhaps a lack of pace, but they just seem to swarm forward, leaving defenders completely at odds at who to go with. It also highlights the ridiculous xenophobia of John Hartson’s comment over Oliver Burke choosing to go there. I could be proved wrong as it is early days, but it seems like a terrific environment for him to learn in. Say what you want about how Red Bull run things at the club, they seem to have a set up that allows young players to progress effectively – this is not the traditional financial doping of Manchester City or Chelsea. Would be great to see them maintain current form and secure a Champions League place. Although Hartson would probably still argue that any agent worth his salt would have secured the lad a move to a lower-mid table Prem team…
Finally, a word for Neymar – he has 50 goals, in 74 international matches, at the age of 24. That’s an astonishing record. Based on the last couple of international tournaments, quality of opposition is simply not an excuse; he is an excellent footballer. It puts England’s players into perspective. I think Wayne Rooney has been a brilliant player, but it really sheds light on where he sits (at a footballing level, maybe not marketing) in the world game. Joey Barton’s stance on Neymar (I don’t follow him enough to know whether he retains it) is preposterous – at the risk of drawing huge conclusions, it shows our nation’s deep mistrust of anybody who does anything that could be deemed superfluous in a game. The image many have of him as a showboater (doubt it’s a word), I think, runs the risk of his effectiveness being overlooked.
Martin, Brighton
Chengdu Blades anyone?
I had written in about this in the past (unpublished), about the possibility of Red Bull buying a British/English team and adopting the model they have employed in Salzburg/Lepzig/New York etc.
My main point was, how bad would this actually be?
Take Villa for example. For years they stagnated under Randy Lerner and were crying out for someone to take over, invest, and put some structure on the place. How bad would it really have been if Red Bull had come in and taken over?
I would wager they wouldn’t be in the bottom half of the Championship managed by Steve Bruce by now if they had. Nor would they have had to endure the Tactics Tim years.
Before you all write in, I know it’s a proud club, with heritage, but at some stage realism has to kick in.
I could have easily substituted Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Nottingham Forest even Everton into this email and made the same point.
These guys are pros at what they do. They are masters at marketing and generating money.
Is it really that different to what city are doing in Manchester/Melbourne/New York? Or the Pozzo family?
Except there doesn’t seem to be the flippant loaning of players between clubs, as commodities.
It’s not even exclusive to moneybags oil barons or energy drinks companies.
Chengdu Blades anyone?
Basically I think that schemes like this can be used to protect football clubs in the long run. They surely pass the fit and proper tests and are preferable to some of the “characters” that have entered the game in recent years.
Dave (Gives you wings) Dublin
One more vote for Storey…
Dear F365,
As flattered as I am that Dave from Manchester voted for me in the FSF Awards (with him and my mum, that’s two whole votes. Mind you, Mum’s got a thing about Henry Winter so…), he’s made a critical error. Those wonderful Steve Bruce book reviews appeared on The Set Pieces, but they weren’t written by me. I just read them out aloud on Football Weekly. It’s the brilliant Seamus O’Reilly who deserves the praise and thus it’s the equally brilliant Daniel Storey who really deserves Dave’s vote. I’ve taken the liberty of going online and voting for Daniel myself in order to redress the balance.
Lots of love,
Iain Macintosh
(MC – It gives us an excuse to say it again. Go here and vote for our man)